Help with Kray texture baking

[bigstick]

Okay, that's interesting. Why no FG?

And if you are only using QMC now, I'm guessing that isn't for all renders surely? I have found them more time consuming and very grainy, although they are accurate. Is this a new Kray 3 thing?

For normal scenes, I'm using your biased settings and getting better results, with no noise, much faster than QMC.

[Keraressi Abdelkarim]

qmc grainy ?


this is default setup .

left its picture and right kray render .


u can increase number if u dont want grainy .

[bigstick]

Yes, QMC is grainy (I can clearly see noise on your image) unless you increase values which increase the render time significantly.
The alternative is to double render size and reduce the image size. That smooths everything out.

[Janusz Biela]

Okay, that's interesting. Why no FG?

Because doesn't exist good FG engine (Is big chance K3 will have the best from all renders) To achieve same quality by FG it must be setup very high which affect almost same time render.

And if you are only using QMC now, I'm guessing that isn't for all renders surely? I have found them more time consuming and very grainy, although they are accurate. Is this a new Kray 3 thing?

Of course QMC can be use for all renders. Grain is no problem. Good setup make small noise and good post process reduce it almost to zero. In exteriors QMC can be faster then FG especially in huge scenes - apparently in heavy scenes is better to use Path Tracing.
QMC and Path Tracing are procedures which can NOT be done in code faster or better because they are no interpolated sampling calculations (V-ray, Maxwell, Octane, Kray - QMC or PT has the same mathematical formula. It can be done faster not directly, by better Ant-Aliasing engine or some tricks with interpolations)
It is big chance (it is target for Grzegorz) to almost achieve same quality in new K3 Final Gathering as in QMC. It is possible but it need really good code. This will be of course without noise.

For normal scenes, I'm using your biased settings and getting better results, with no noise, much faster than QMC.

Final Gathering is good for small scenes and interiors but It can be compare to QMC with quality. Of course FG is faster but in some cases NOT.

[bigstick]

Because doesn't exist good FG engine (Is big chance K3 will have the best from all renders) To achieve same quality by FG it must be setup very high which affect almost same time render.

So that means that you get lower quality renders for texture baking if you aren't using FG.

Of course QMC can be use for all renders. Grain is no problem. Good setup make small noise and good post process reduce it almost to zero. In exteriors QMC can be faster then FG especially in huge scenes - apparently in heavy scenes is better to use Path Tracing.

Sure it can be used, but you wouldn't choose to use it for all of them, surely...

QMC and Path Tracing are procedures which can NOT be done in code faster or better because they are no interpolated sampling calculations (V-ray, Maxwell, Octane, Kray - QMC or PT has the same mathematical formula. It can be done faster not directly, by better Ant-Aliasing engine or some tricks with interpolations)

Well, if you read about the various unbiased engines, they all talk about speed optimisations. Mathematically I'm sure it is possible, but you're right about the principle.

I have to say that I find this a little depressing. If you want to render with an unbiased algorithm, there are already quite a few render engines like Luxrender and Yafaray that already produce great results for free. The algorithms are all basically the same, so if your modeller is supported, with comprehensive materials and tonemapping options, technically there shouldn't be much difference between any of them. You could argue that with good PP, tonemapping isn't critically important either...

If you are going to accept the long time (but often the benefit of simpler setup) for an unbiased render, and can get the software for free, what is the point of paying for something like Kray if you can't get similar quality much faster? You could also argue that with network rendering, potentially even the speed benefit of unbiased algorithms are negated.

Isn't biased rendering the whole focus of Kray - and Vray? You get great results, really quickly. If you tell me that for biased engines to get similar quality, you need similar (or longer) render time, it's quite a statement. In my humble opinion, the unique thing about Kray is its balance between quality, speed and (relative) simplicity. I think Kray is a fabulous piece of software, but your statements about unbiased techniques to me are shocking because they imply that there is no point in using an engine like Kray...

It is big chance (it is target for Grzegorz) to almost achieve same quality in new K3 Final Gathering as in QMC. It is possible but it need really good code. This will be of course without noise.

I guess that remains to be seen
I haven't seen examples of typical scenes (interior or exterior) which are a direct comparison (including render time) between Kray 2.5 and Kray 3. I guess this is what we are all waiting for!

Final Gathering is good for small scenes and interiors but It can be compare to QMC with quality. Of course FG is faster but in some cases NOT.

I accept that for some scenes QMC can be faster, but personally I haven't seen many.

[Janusz Biela]

So that means that you get lower quality renders for texture baking if you aren't using FG.

In this question you should use Noise level not lower quality. It can NOT be compare QMC with Final Gathering because this first one produce no interpolated GI so quality is far better then Final Gathering. Noise is not big problem - if has good acceptable level for cleaning in post process.

Sure it can be used, but you wouldn't choose to use it for all of them, surely...

In attachment some my renders done in Path Tracing. Time renders under 20 min...impossible to achieve by Final Gathering.

Well, if you read about the various unbiased engines, they all talk about speed optimisations. Mathematically I'm sure it is possible, but you're right about the principle.

There is nothing to speed up. It is pure CPU/GPU calculation. Saying: we optimised speed render 20-40% in Path Tracing it is partly true because is nothing to speed up! It can be speed up by tricks: for example in first minutes Path Tracing Photons are interpolated by special part of code or noise is reduced more by new algorithm. The first trick allow user to see something in the first seconds/minutes of render. I think many unbiased engine renders has some trick for that because let's say true: Path Tracing is horrible slow. Without these trick it would be impossible to see something in first minutes!
If you want check how slow is Path Tracing download demo Octane and start one of the demo interior scene with PURE 5 bounce Path Tracing render (without Direct Light trick and OCC)

I have to say that I find this a little depressing. If you want to render with an unbiased algorithm, there are already quite a few render engines like Luxrender and Yafaray that already produce great results for free. The algorithms are all basically the same, so if your modeller is supported, with comprehensive materials and tonemapping options, technically there shouldn't be much difference between any of them. You could argue that with good PP, tonemapping isn't critically important either...

If we talk about free software: of course it`s true but is one problem: The power of render engine is strongly connected with possibilities of software 3D.
In Lightwave case: one of the best Instances system, one if not the best Nodes system, one of the best animation system, one of the best modelling system for architecture (Modeler + LWCAD). In Max3D the same situation.

If you are going to accept the long time (but often the benefit of simpler setup) for an unbiased render, and can get the software for free, what is the point of paying for something like Kray if you can't get similar quality much faster? You could also argue that with network rendering, potentially even the speed benefit of unbiased algorithms are negated..

I use Kray not because of "Kray" but because of Lightwave.

Isn't biased rendering the whole focus of Kray - and Vray? You get great results, really quickly. If you tell me that for biased engines to get similar quality, you need similar (or longer) render time, it's quite a statement. In my humble opinion, the unique thing about Kray is its balance between quality, speed and (relative) simplicity. I think Kray is a fabulous piece of software, but your statements about unbiased techniques to me are shocking because they imply that there is no point in using an engine like Kray...

Is not time for Path Tracing yet. Next 5-10 years. Today king is Final Gathering.
Kray3 will have hybrid CPU/GPU (Is partly done in code). Some parts of render are done faster by CPU and is better to focus on hybrid then totally drown in GPU.
Let`s say true: 90-99% of renders done is by Final Gathering or QMC

I guess that remains to be seen
I haven't seen examples of typical scenes (interior or exterior) which are a direct comparison (including render time) between Kray 2.5 and Kray 3. I guess this is what we are all waiting for!

I could test it in K3 pre beta 3 because Final Gathering had bug with this (it did not work at all) Patience

I accept that for some scenes QMC can be faster, but personally I haven't seen many.

See attachments
Auditorium has
- almost 600 Instanced chairs
- 10 Physical Lights (Area Lights)
- 170 IES Lights
- around 300 Lumi Lights (halogens)
This scene I render much faster in QMC then Final Gathering

[jnom]

This scene I render much faster in QMC then Final Gathering

For still shots maybe but for animation qmc is not fast. Baking is still the way to go then separate out the animated objects and render them separately. But with gpu/cpu renderers qmc could be faster as you said in 5-10 years.

Will kray support the new cuda with unified memory?

[Janusz Biela]

For still shots maybe but for animation qmc is not fast. Baking is still the way to go then separate out the animated objects and render them separately. But with gpu/cpu renderers qmc could be faster as you said in 5-10 years.

Will kray support the new cuda with unified memory?

In some cases only Path Tracing can help: huge exterior scenes. Bake GI is not ultimate solution - it`s only good for small and medium scenes.
It is threshold when Bake GI starts be unprofitable to use.
Personally I do not use Bake GI in Exteriors - better is to save Photon Map in a couple of seconds and start render animation immediately in QMC then wait 1-2 days for baking GI an growing this file up to 2-4 Giga (praying it will finish without problems).
GPU in Kray is partly done but this is future. I have no details yet about this feature.

[jfk]

Hello,

Kray3 will have hybrid CPU/GPU (Is partly done in code). Some parts of render are done faster by CPU and is better to focus on hybrid then totally drown in GPU.

Do You know what GPU support, CUDA or OpenCL???

Thank You for the answer
Franz

[Janusz Biela]

No tech details about this but will ask G. next time.

[jnom]

For still shots maybe but for animation qmc is not fast. Baking is still the way to go then separate out the animated objects and render them separately. But with gpu/cpu renderers qmc could be faster as you said in 5-10 years.

Will kray support the new cuda with unified memory?

In some cases only Path Tracing can help: huge exterior scenes. Bake GI is not ultimate solution - it`s only good for small and medium scenes.
It is threshold when Bake GI starts be unprofitable to use.
Personally I do not use Bake GI in Exteriors - better is to save Photon Map in a couple of seconds and start render animation immediately in QMC then wait 1-2 days for baking GI an growing this file up to 2-4 Giga (praying it will finish without problems).
GPU in Kray is partly done but this is future. I have no details yet about this feature.

Huge exterior scenes is not a problem for vray though using irr+lightcache. As long as they are static its no problem and render is fast. Just render out the animated objects separate. Biased renderer is cheating so unbiased can't beat it for now with current hardware but I doubt that will come since faster hardware means faster biased renderers. Pathtracing and unbiased renderers strength is for animated objects where you can't cheat or interpolate well. Arnold seems to be the best brute force renderer out now but its too expensive.

[Janusz Biela]

To render huge scenes with Bake GI brings all the time problem (is doesn`t matter what kind of render engine) All the time dealing with huge GI file is dangerous and provoke errors. I do not recommend this system of rendering for extreme scenes.

Moving objects or light is completely different problem. It is not about GI file or Bake system. It is how do deal with fraction in Photon Map - there is no way to render moving objects or lights with Photon Mapping properly (except Time interpolation - but then we can not use network rendering in Kray)

I will ask G. about how to deal with this problem in future (Time Interpolation) because this system is the best for Photon Mapping in animation with moving objects and lights.

[bigstick]

Hmm, interesting. I don't think I have ever seen any scene with any level of detail render in 20 minutes.

What are your QMC settings?

I use
GI Resolution 0.5
Photons -800000
PmN 800
Min FG rays 5000
Max FG rays 0
FGblur 2

All the other settings are the same as the equivalent for biased renders. If I increase FG rays, time increases a lot.

I've attached 2 identical test renders, one is with QMC, the other with PM with 2 passes. You can see that quality is probably better with PM, and render time is significantly lower. 300% time increase with QMC. I'm rendering on a Corei5 Macbook Pro. That explains render speed but not the difference.

so, probably something wrong with my QMC settings

[Janusz Biela]

Definitely you set up something wrong.
In Podium are different values then in Lightwav Kray - of course the core is the same.
I think:
GI Resolution 0.5 is too big (if this is in meters then should be 0.3-04)
Min/Max FG rays 5000 (here also is different value so I do not know - in Kray for this noise level should be around 200/700)
FGblur 2 - it doesn`t work in QMC mode. But for Final Gathering is too high also (In Kray maximum should be 0.5-1.0)

This Interior should render on i7 12 HT in QMC mode in 10-20 min.
In my opinion this is not good scene for testing - too less details.
If you want compare GI, always use override mode to see details (textures and dark colours cover details in corners and details in GI).
Also Precomputed/unfiltered render shows size of cells and this should be also rendered.

In render with QMC mode I see something wrong with Photon Map - looks as too high GI resolution which affect light leaks.